Lanes/Targa Rallies

KevM

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7,247
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Banbridge
How was it compared to last year? Did they run the same tests?

Rathfriland was quite spread out last year with some of the tests being quite short?
 

FM155

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8,651
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Alfa 155
Thanks Davy, bit of a surprise to be honest, we made our fair share of mistakes. The convery brothers were well ahead of us with a clean run all day but they got a max on the last test which I'm sure they were gutted about.
I had a major moment at the very same cone from your description @DavyC . I was on the second 'lap' and came in a bit wide and caught lots of really loose gravel and lost the rear end and slid sideways right up to the wall with the quarter panel / door / navigator all breathing in lol. Stalled it and got a huge 'Yeeeoooooo' from the assembled spectators before gathering it up and crossing the line.
I was wondering what had happened you @swansty as you'd gone from the results early on. Not good when you can see gears !! At least the sumpguard was there to hold the engine and box in the car..
 

DavyC

RMS Regular
Messages
433
Tests were good Kevin, They'd done away with the two really short lanes from last year and found a few new venues. 3 loops around 5 tests, then a quick 4th run at Around-a-pounds yard as it's right beside the Sheepbridge. Any 'yard' type tests had a 2nd lap to get a bit more out of them. Mostly loose surfaces too.

@FM155 it was definately a tricky one to try to skim through. We got the spectators to go "Ooohhhh!!!"... some with thier hands on there heads. lol.
 

swervygerdy

RMS Regular
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233
Any mx5 owners shed some light on how to fit an upright hydraulic handbrake? The standard cable operated job is useless....

Are the standard calipers (1.8svt so bigger brakes) up to the job?

I was going to mount the handbrake and m/c on the pass side with some sort of bracket onto the tunnel, maybe strengthen the tunnel with a plate on the gearbox side?

What about plumbing it up, do I just split the line going to the rear and tie in another line from the handbrake. Will the abs be affected?

Any help much appreciated

@DavyC

@John_MK5
 

DavyC

RMS Regular
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433
@swervygerdy I was a bit worried about clubs getting picky about the MSA regs, requiring that a hydraulic handbrake should use the original handle and pivot point, so I've went down that route. In hindsight I maybe wouldnt bother as clubs dont seem to mind the separate lever. It took a fair bit of trial and error to get enough leverage etc and I ended up using a .5" master cylinder instead of the more common .625". A .625" might be fine with the longer upright handle tho. My rear brakes were the 250mm discs with standard calipers (31mm pistons I think) and it worked fine, then I recently fitted 275mm discs and moved the standard calipers out to suit and it works slightly better again, so your 275mm discs and sport calipers (33mm pistons?) should be up to the job no bother.

Yeah, just split the single line going down to the rear and double check the inlet / outlet on the master cylinder. Inlet's usually the at the end with outlet about half way up the master cylinder body. With this set up you'll feel the your foot brake and handbrake 'push against' each other, but you'll soon get used to it. Easiest way to disable ABS is to just unplug the unit under the bonnet.
 
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swervygerdy

RMS Regular
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233
Thanks @DavyC

I've went for an OBC vertical handbrake with a .7 m/c. I'll make up some bracketry to fix it to the tunnel over the weekend.

With regard to the plumbing - have I got this right?

Outlet from the new handbrake m/c to the a T piece in the line going to the rear.
Inlet from the new handbrake m/c to a spare port on the existing brake m/c. There only is one spare port.

I take it I need to flare both cut ends of the brake line and fit them to a "T" piece of some description along with my new line from the handbrake

Do I then unplug the ABS and should it remain unplugged for normal driving?
 

cauld1

RMS Regular
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5,325
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BMW E34
Hoping to get an entry in for Larne again this year, and aiming to finish it this time! Thoroughly enjoyed the little bit of last years event that I did.

We've made (mostly my dad) a fairly 'junkyard parts' setup which seems to work, using mk2 1.8 rear discs, seat ibiza gti rear calipers and a .5 cylinder. We've used the original pivot but made our own handle.
I've got a mk1 1.6 so my standard calipers are useless!

@swervygerdy you may struggle to get a .7 cylinder to work but I'm not 100 percent sure.
 

DavyC

RMS Regular
Messages
433
^^^.. Ibiza calipers?!.. Thats a new one. Nice one!

@swervygerdy I'd be tempted to get it all plumbed up and see how the .7" feels. You should be able to swap out the master cylinder if it feels too heavy.

Regarding the plumbing, you shouldnt need to add a new line into the footbrake M/C. You just need to make the single rear brake line 'pass through' the handbrake M/C here's a couple of pics of my own.. (excuse the dirt / buffed chassis leg etc)..

WP_20150827_21_07_30_Pro.jpg



160220144328.jpg


A previous owner had put a new section in the single line going to the rear T piece, so I just removed it and put a new piece from their fitting and run it through the rear bulkhead to the M/C inlet. Then another new piece from the M/C outlet, back out through the bulkhead to the car's original T piece.

If you're mounting your lever & cylinder up beside your knee then it would be tidier for you to run the new lines through the tunnel at that point. I only run mine through the rear bulkhead as it was close enough to where I was mounting the M/C.

There's a few combinations of suitable fittings that will work. I opted for the male ended, banjo type fittings. Just check your M/C threads... some manufacturers use metric and some use imperial.

As for unplugging the ABS unit, it will only stop the ABS from working (and likely bring on the dash light), but otherwise brakes will perform as normal.

Hope that helps.
 
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swervygerdy

RMS Regular
Messages
233
Ah ok, cheers @DavyC muxh appreciated

Thats a bit clearer. So the handbrake is in seris with the foot brake.

Thats the thoery, now for the practical work
 

swervygerdy

RMS Regular
Messages
233
So, spent today fitting the hydraulic handbrake, plumbed it up with braided lines, bled the system - handbrake is useless ffs.

P1030290_zpsoipqe9fq.jpg


Any ideas on where I'm going wrong @DavyC ? The lever is real hard to pull - very little travel and will not lock the rears at all, just slows the car down a bit. I'm using a .7 M/C. When I apply the footbrake lightly and try the hydro its definitely better.....

Callipers are nice and free, pads and discs are good.

Should I go for a smaller M/C, like .625?
 

KevM

RMS Regular
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7,247
Location
Banbridge
Your lever is far too short for a larger MC like that. You are moving a lot of fluid with a .7 which sounds like a good thing, but in reality, the larger the bore, the more force required to generate pressure. You'll not get the leverage with that wand!!

.625 might be ok, but smaller will actually work slightly better
 

DavyC

RMS Regular
Messages
433
Lol, I remember being gutted the 1st time I tried plumbing my own in and it turning out to be wick. As Kevin says, the .7" M/C is killing it. Measured a few points on my own and the standard OEM lever is 11" long with the M/C push rod connected 1.5" from lever's pivot point (thats with a .5" M/C). Your lever looks to be a little longer (12"?), with the M/C push rod at about 1.75" from pivot?... You could mess about trying to connect the M/C push rod a lot closer to the pivot but I think the best option would be to go for a .5" M/C. Swapping your .7" for a .625" would see a 20% advantage but swapping the .7" for a .5" would see nearly 50% advantage.

You'll lever will travel a bit more but that should'nt be a problem, tho it looks like you'll have to trim the vertical side webs of the main bracket to allow clearance for the M/C connecting rod bolt / nut.

You've the most of the hard work done now all the same. Again just check your fitting thread type when ordering a replacement M/C.
 
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swervygerdy

RMS Regular
Messages
233
lol, yeah gutted is exactly how I felt, especially after two runs to Augher from Belfast, first to pick up the braided lines, then down again because I asked for the wrong fitting onto the ABS unit.

Got it all screwed back together, headed down the driveway, clutch in, big pull on the lever - nothing, then had to stand on the footbrake before ploughing into the garage.

where would I get a .5 M/C tomorrow? Any motor factors or is it specialist motorsports item?
 

DavyC

RMS Regular
Messages
433
Thats a bit of a trek alright. Im not sure where you'd get one off the shelf today. Mine was an ebay purchase I think... It's handy having things arrive at the door, if you can wait a few days.
 

Liam Shaw

RMS Regular
Messages
154
Location
Kilrea
Drives
VW Caddy/MX5
@swervygerdy The way I have put my handbrake in and a good few other lanes rally mk2 mx5 boys too, is a little bit different (but apparently is common with autotesters and drifters, not sure though). But basically my handbrake has it's own set of calipers and the whole thing is completely independent of the normal brakes except obviously for the disks. Took a bit of work to get it going but it works absolutely brilliantly (even with disks that are on there last legs). It's on a .7 cylinder and requires very little effort. I also used braided brake lines becuase there far handier that making up copper ones and i think they look far better and tidier as well.
 

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Liam Shaw

RMS Regular
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154
Location
Kilrea
Drives
VW Caddy/MX5
I wasn't 100% necessary but it makes the MOT a bit easier in the fact that the ABS isn't tampered with and the normal brake lines. When I put my VW Caddy though the PSV the MOT man told me hydraulic handbrakes where completely illegal because they tamper with the standard brake lines and even though i knew he was wrong I didn't want much bother or confusion when the next test is due on the MX so my handbrake should eliminate most of that. If all goes to plan he wont even mention it but its 100% legal anyway so it shouldn't matter
 

PeteMoore

RMS Regular
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13,430
Location
Co. Down
So, spent today fitting the hydraulic handbrake, plumbed it up with braided lines, bled the system - handbrake is useless ffs.

P1030290_zpsoipqe9fq.jpg


Any ideas on where I'm going wrong @DavyC ? The lever is real hard to pull - very little travel and will not lock the rears at all, just slows the car down a bit. I'm using a .7 M/C. When I apply the footbrake lightly and try the hydro its definitely better.....

Callipers are nice and free, pads and discs are good.

Should I go for a smaller M/C, like .625?

I know this sounds stupid, but have you plumbed it the correct way round?

The line from the front of the car should go into the back of your cylinder and the line going to the rear of the car needs to come out of the forward most (angled) port.

.625 is the one you want, but you can also adjust the cylinder on the rod a touch, effectively removing any free play. Even on our cars we constantly adjust throughout an event depending on how it felt in the previous test. Silly things like pad knockback can make a massive difference to how it feels aswell.

So before going to the expense of another cylinder, try adjusting the slack out and go from there.

EDIT: also the vast majority of hydraulic handbrakes are flimsy as f**k, additional bracing is almost certainly required, especially with OBP stuff we have found. If you are hanging off the handle and there is any movement, that will be pressure not being transmitted through to the brake calipers. Eliminating this again vastly improves how the handbrake feels.

Modifying the lever is also something we do to prevent those moments during a test where you are randomly swiping in mid air trying to find the lever. It also allows us to lock the back end and change from first to reverse with one hand and at the same time.

IMAG0596.jpg


2014-05-23 19.46.17.jpg


Which you can see in action here:
 
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DavyC

RMS Regular
Messages
433
..lol, We're sending the man round in circles here with which master cylinder to try. @swervygerdy if you get a .5" and find that it's too easy to pull (I doubt it tho) or it travels too much for your liking, then I've an as new .625" imperial threaded one I'll swap for your .5" if you want.

I initially tried the .625" connected to the 11" long lever at 1.5" from pivot and it was wick, so redrilled and reconnected at 1" from pivot and it worked fine but created more stress on connecting bolts / brackets etc, hence why I sourced a .5" and connected it at 1.5" from pivot. It took about the same effort to operate but removed the slightly spongy feeling.

@Liam Shaw That's a nice set up, tho there's a bit more expence there. I know a few of the MX guys running the seperate caliper set up and they seem to like it. Out of interest, what length is that lever and whats the distance from M/C push rod to lever's pivot? Also, what diameter are the pistons in the Wilwoods? You say thats with a .7" M/C and those look like the 250mm discs.. just curious how different combinations add up.
 

cauld1

RMS Regular
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5,325
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BMW E34
I'd agree with @DavyC and go with the .5 firstly for the mx5. Our Seat and mk2 mx5 scrapyard parts concoction works nicely for very little outlay.

@Liam Shaw any photos of how the secondary caliper bracket fits on?
 

Liam Shaw

RMS Regular
Messages
154
Location
Kilrea
Drives
VW Caddy/MX5
@Liam Shaw That's a nice set up, tho there's a bit more expence there. I know a few of the MX guys running the seperate caliper set up and they seem to like it. Out of interest, what length is that lever and whats the distance from M/C push rod to lever's pivot? Also, what diameter are the pistons in the Wilwoods? You say thats with a .7" M/C and those look like the 250mm discs.. just curious how different combinations add up.


Yes a little more expensive but anybody who had used them or knew anything about fully recommended them and said they were great with the only con being the extra weight. Also heard a good few boys complaining that there mx5 hydros were just OK and wasn't always a guaranteed lock up but I'd say that depends what size of brakes they have. Mines are 276mm disks. 12" lever. 3.5" or 4" from lever to mastercylinder but seems to be ajustable although I haven't touched it from what it came with. I think piston diameter is 1.72" from memory.

We had initially planned to do is a cheap as possible by using callipers of another car aswell but it was too difficult to find out what would work and what wouldn't so we just took the easy option.

Leaver is perfect firmness. Not to loose where it has to be pulled the whole way but not to tight either. Pushrod only moves about an inch and lever about 3.5 or 4 which is how I like it
 
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DavyC

RMS Regular
Messages
433
Ah!!.. makes sense now with a few numbers threw in (cheers @Liam Shaw (y)) and I think I recognise the car in the 2nd batch of pics.. AEZ ----?.. Belonged to a top notch autotester, and big gentleman of a bloke?

If those wilwoods have 1.72" pistons (43mm?) then they're huge compared to OEM MX5 ones... a surface area increase of 92% for caliper piston.. lol. You'd need a .625" or .7" to work with them. @swervygerdy , that reassures me that a .5" would be best suited for our 31-33mm MX calipers. Regarding 'pad knock back' that Pete mentioned, your handbrake adjuster within the OEM caliper can prevent excess play. You adjust them to leave just enough clearance to avoid binding when the brakes warm up as per normal servicing (nipped up to firm, then off 1/4 turn is nice). You just need to check adjustment every now and again (literally a 2 minute job).

We've turned this into a 'check out my wand' thread...

So is anyone else out for Cookstown or is it an RMS no show?.. It's with great regret that we wont be out! (Stupid holidays ffs!:sob:)
 
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