VW diesel emissions scandal

[stevieturbo]

Is that not the law in quite a few states in the US anyway?

Other than Cali, it seems the only testing that happens in the US seems to be plug an an OBD scanner and if it says happy, you're waved on. And even states with that seem few and far between. You just need to look at some of the "road legal" cars over there...Street Outlaws highlighting that.

It's more strict in Cali though, where only approved modifications etc allowed and I think they do proper tests and have proper inspections

Really, it is just a massive crock of ****. If the car passes their tests as they are conducted...who cares ? Isnt that the purpose of the test ?

it's no different than most school exams. They dont teach people how to learn, develop etc...they teach how to pass silly tests, this looks no different.

It all stinks of a money making scam somewhere along the line, but then when it comes to cars, what's new about that although I guess only difference here is it isnt the normal motorist getting ****ed over for a change.

 

[svensktoppen]

Will be interesting to see how this plays out...

Very little details of what is actually going on. So far it just sounds like a dedicated map specifically for the test cycle, but as others have pointed out no details on how that is triggered.

All of them have special maps for the test cycle, always have had since catalytic converters (which only "work" at idle, to pass legislation which handily only measures at idle). The modern test cycle is just an extension of that - a test designed by the manufacturers in a way that allows them to "pass" without affecting how the cars run or perform in the real world.

It is possible that VW have a special mode for the test cycle they have to engage manually. After all, these tests are done in a lab by the manufacturers themselves. If someone in the US then for whatever reason tried themselves they would not get the same result as the map would be different.

But that is all speculation. It would be really stupid by VW.

 

[56oval]

ooof

VW emissions scandal hits 11m vehicles - BBC News

Bet my one on the drive is one of em LOL

 

[Coog]

Share price is taking some hammering

 

[Simon998]

[–]indyphil
This has nothing to do with state and local testing. This a federal certification issue. You will eventually be given a recall notice. However if you like getting good gas mileage you might just ignore it. Not sure how or if they can force owners to bring the car in.

[–]Caos2
Why mileage is expected to go down?

[–]indyphil
So the short answer is still quite long.
They were caught cheating on NOx emissions primarily although all emissions are in a way connected.
NOx is created when temperatures and pressures are very high during combustion. Sadly NOx emission is generally higher when your combustion is nice and hot and rapid, which gives higher efficiency (closer to the ideal thermodynamic cycle).
So In general if you calibrate the engine with a combustion recipe that atomizes fuel quickly and mixes well youll get more NOx.
There are couple of important trade-offs then. Low soot/good combustion = Higher NOx and Low fuel consumption = higher Nox.
The EPA therefore defines "clean" as having BOTH low soot AND low NOx, and since those two things are hard to achieve together it takes a good bit of engineering, and in todays world some aftertreatment to achieve it.
EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) Particulate filters Oxidation catalysts and SCR calalysts (using Urea as a reactant) all are ways of reducing these combustion products while trying to maintain decent fuel consumption
But in VWs case what they did was teach the ECM to recognize when it was being tested. At that time it would switch to the "clean" map. Clean meaning that it meets EPA requirements for both NOx and soot.
Then when the test is over (and potentially an OBD drive cycle) it would fall back to its primary driving map. On the driving map it would have been optimized for best fuel economy and performance. Optimized in this case refers to the fuel injection pressure and timing, and possibly EGR and Urea flow, parameters controlled by the ECM.
Specifically earlier injection timing gives better power and efficiency but creates more NOx. NOx by the way is totally invisible and odorless.
The end result is an engine that will pass an EPA engine emissions certification test, but then will recalibrate itself for driving or (ironically) for the EPA mpg test cycle (which is done in chassis without emissions monitoring). Thus the engineers get to circumvent the very difficult trade-off between NOx and efficiency. The car will produce a lot more NOx in normal driving, and have better fuel economy. Technically not meeting the intent of the emissions law but very hard to detect.
If VW correct this via recall the car will be required to run on the "clean" calibration all the time. This will mean poorer fuel economy, I would be speculating to say by how much but VW wouldnt have bothered cheating if it wasnt a significant gain. It may even have implications on durability if certain parameters (like exhaust gas temps, turbocharger RPMs or oil life) are affected as they often are.

Pasted from reddit, seems to give a decent insight.

 

[svensktoppen]

Sounds like another "expert" who has done a bit of Wikipedia "research", lol

Every manufacturer on the planet uses a "special" map of some sort or other to pass emissions tests, to run the mpg cycles, etc.

Just look at some of the obvious fantasy numbers from Porsche, just to pick one...

The question is why VW have ended up getting themselves singled out. It is how the system is designed, and how it works. The only surprise is that anyone is surprised...

 

[mk2driver]

Sounds like another "expert" who has done a bit of Wikipedia "research", lol

Every manufacturer on the planet uses a "special" map of some sort or other to pass emissions tests, to run the mpg cycles, etc.

Just look at some of the obvious fantasy numbers from Porsche, just to pick one...

The question is why VW have ended up getting themselves singled out. It is how the system is designed, and how it works. The only surprise is that anyone is surprised...

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself in this thread, manufacturers do not have a specific calibration for emissions testing. They have a map that will pass emissions in the best way possible but this map is also the same one the car uses all the time. This is obviously different for exceptions such as sport modes etc which can change parameters and this is completely legal. What you refer to @svensktoppen eith regard to catalyst heating etc is all legal, you will notice that modern cars have raised idles all the time for catalyst light off not just when on a cycle (within parameters such as ambient temperatures as outlined by the authorities).

What VW have done from my understanding is to actually change the calibration when the car detects it is on cycle and this is completely different and is cheating.

 

[stevieturbo]

It isnt cheating...it's bending or exploiting the rules lol

If a standard car can drive up, be tested and meet all the requirements for that test without any intervention, I really dont see a problem.

 

[mk2driver]

It isnt cheating...it's bending or exploiting the rules lol

If a standard car can drive up, be tested and meet all the requirements for that test without any intervention, I really dont see a problem.

It can, within an allowed tolerance, if its tested in the same test conditions and in the USA there is in use testing at various mileages to confirm that they pass. We also have a requirement to test cars straight off the production line to prove the conform.

Engineering a car to perform its best on a test is not cheating, it's engineering and optimising

 

[FM155]

Exactly this ^
Can't blame the manufacturers if the regulations or the test method bears little relationship to real world use.
It's the legislation and the legistators that need to work more closely with the manufacturers to arrive at a test that can be realistic and good for the environment in as much as today's technology allows....

 

[swansty]

It isnt cheating...it's bending or exploiting the rules lol

If a standard car can drive up, be tested and meet all the requirements for that test without any intervention, I really dont see a problem.

If you go into an exam with a textbook in your pocket, realise you don't know the answer to the question so take out the textbook, use it, and put it back, would you not call that cheating? that's essentially whats being done by VW. I don't really care, VW are probably among the top manufacturers regarding engine technology - if they cant meet the California test, surely no other manufacturer can in which case they are all bound to be in trouble together. Surely its not just VW that sell diesels in California?

 

[mk2driver]

If you go into an exam with a textbook in your pocket, realise you don't know the answer to the question so take out the textbook, use it, and put it back, would you not call that cheating? that's essentially whats being done by VW. I don't really care, VW are probably among the top manufacturers regarding engine technology - if they cant meet the California test, surely no other manufacturer can in which case they are all bound to be in trouble together. Surely its not just VW that sell diesels in California?

They can meet the emissions but at the expense of fuel economy due to the CO2/NOx/particulate trade offs. VW wanted the best of both worlds in terms of good fuel economy and low NOx etc and had to cheat to do that

 

[swansty]

Ahhh ok, sorry I hadn't gathered that. Oh dear VW, tut tut.

 

[Cartunes]

I can only hope that VW have to sell off a few subsidiaries in light of this boo-boo. Free the Crewe 7500!

 

[svensktoppen]

What VW have done from my understanding is to actually change the calibration when the car detects it is on cycle and this is completely different and is cheating.

Engineering a car to perform its best on a test is not cheating, it's engineering and optimising

This was kind of my point, maybe did not make it very well

All manufacturers "optimise" the maps at certain points for emission testing/the artificial "mpg" cycle/whatever. It is simply how the system works. And why the "official" numbers have nothing at all to do with real life performance.

Which allows manufacturers to look like they are "doing their bit", yet still allows them to make cars we would actually want to buy and drive. We should be thankful for this!

So unless they have done something seriously stupid, like somehow manually switching maps or something to pass specific tests, I have no idea what the problem is.

If the car somehow figures out for itself that it should optimise differently for emissions, or fuel, or whatever, from operating conditions, not sure why even that is "cheating". As long as it gets it right. It is obviously how Porsche, for example, get their obviously ludicrous "official" numbers. (I pick Porsche because their claims are so obviously outrageous, but the same is true for all the "official" numbers from all manufacturers).

As far as I can tell, they have simply not got the "optimisation" right, and maybe tried to be a little too clever, and were not able to reproduce the test results in later testing in the US. Which is a massive eff-up at VW engineering.

 

[stevieturbo]

I dont see any mention of SEAT, Audi, Skoda etc yet ?

Surely if VW are getting nailed...the others are bound to follow given many of the cars platforms are basically identical ?

 

[mike_2]

That genuinely made me laugh out loud in the office and have everyone look at me.
Sadly though that's how people are starting to go on.

Just walked past one of those VW'S when it started up , I wasn't wearing a mask !!! I'm panicking here , is there a helpline.

 

[BobSpounge]

I don't give a flying fook about this scandal, all I want to know is will it effect the Golf R lease deals, will the cheap ones make a comeback?

 

[mk2driver]

This was kind of my point, maybe did not make it very well

All manufacturers "optimise" the maps at certain points for emission testing/the artificial "mpg" cycle/whatever. It is simply how the system works. And why the "official" numbers have nothing at all to do with real life performance.

Which allows manufacturers to look like they are "doing their bit", yet still allows them to make cars we would actually want to buy and drive. We should be thankful for this!

So unless they have done something seriously stupid, like somehow manually switching maps or something to pass specific tests, I have no idea what the problem is.

If the car somehow figures out for itself that it should optimise differently for emissions, or fuel, or whatever, from operating conditions, not sure why even that is "cheating". As long as it gets it right. It is obviously how Porsche, for example, get their obviously ludicrous "official" numbers. (I pick Porsche because their claims are so obviously outrageous, but the same is true for all the "official" numbers from all manufacturers).

As far as I can tell, they have simply not got the "optimisation" right, and maybe tried to be a little too clever, and were not able to reproduce the test results in later testing in the US. Which is a massive eff-up at VW engineering.

VW have not just optimised, the car is actually switching to a different calibration when it detects its on an emissions cycle. This means when its operating on the road it is operating on an entirely different calibration. That's cheating.

Optimising particular speed load points within the calibration that the car operates on during the cycle is completely different and is allowed as the car operates on this calibration only while on the road and on the cycle.

Think of it like cars that have a race fuel map and a 95 ton road map and can switch. VW have created two maps like this, one for on road performance and one for the exhaust emissions cycle and they switch between the two, this is not allowed as the calibration the vehicle runs on the emissions cycle must be the default calibration it runs on the road. What other OEM's do is to create a "97ron" map where it is optimised as best as possible but only runs one map.

They are essentially manually switching maps for different tests but just using a software switch rather than an electrical one and this is not allowed

 

[chris_b]

And everyone thought Aul Adolf Hitler was dead.....

 

[BobSpounge]

I dont see any mention of SEAT, Audi, Skoda etc yet ?

Surely if VW are getting nailed...the others are bound to follow given many of the cars platforms are basically identical ?

Audi is in there. A3

I don't think you can get Seat and Skoda in the USA

 

[CharlySkunkWeed]

I dont see any mention of SEAT, Audi, Skoda etc yet ?

Surely if VW are getting nailed...the others are bound to follow given many of the cars platforms are basically identical ?

I was wording this myself , wonder if they'll buy my FR TDI off me and I can go back to petrol

 

[svensktoppen]

I dont see any mention of SEAT, Audi, Skoda etc yet ?

As above, Audi A3 already mentioned. Also mentioned in Korea. And a few European countries who have jumped on the bandwagon and are gurning about launching full scale EU inquiries and all the rest, of all German manufacturers.

No mention yet of Italian cars, French, etc., lol - strangely quiet on that front, just all the German manufacturers

UK government taking a "let's calm down" approach, which is refreshing. Or maybe they just know what will happen when someone starts looking at the UK car industry.

What a load of **** over nothing

 

[svensktoppen]

VW have not just optimised, the car is actually switching to a different calibration when it detects its on an emissions cycle. This means when its operating on the road it is operating on an entirely different calibration. That's cheating.

Optimising particular speed load points within the calibration that the car operates on during the cycle is completely different and is allowed as the car operates on this calibration only while on the road and on the cycle.

I know what you are saying, and there is a fine line somewhere in all of this mess. But the fact is they are all at it, it is just how the system works and how the rules have been written.

Just boils down to how you want to slice the hair, because that is what it is at the end of the day.

Looks like VW may have got a bit too clever for their own good and gone one step too far.

Or more likely, they were the first who happened to get caught...

 

[CharlySkunkWeed]

UK government taking a "let's calm down" approach, which is refreshing. Or maybe they just know what will happen when someone starts looking at the UK car industry.

What a load of **** over nothing

No ! I'm bloody outraged ! Def think they should have to buy back my Leon or at least replace it with a Cupra .